Me: So what did you learn in school today?
Daughter: I learned snakes eat mice.
Me: And so they do.
Daughter: I got to see one do it.
Me: Oh….did you watch a movie or something?
Daughter: No, Randy brought his snake for show and tell.
Me: Well, that’s delightful. So what, he brought in a frozen mouse and fed it to his snake?
Daughter: No, the mouse was alive.
Me: ….
My mom (who is covering her mouth in disbelief): Didn’t the mouse try and run away?
Daughter: Well, yes, but the snake was faster.
Me: Oh…..
Daughter: It was just a baby mouse.
My mom: Oh my god.
Daughter: It ate his head last. I think it was still breathing but when just its head was sticking out I think it might have been dead.
OK, so I understand teaching kids about nature and all of that, but I prefer my 5 year old to be exposed to it in semi-sanitized versions like those Disney nature movies, as opposed to the visceral and explicit reality of watching a baby mouse slowly suffocate in front of her eyes. That’s a little too much reality for a Monday morning.
I haven’t quite figured out when or even if the teacher had any advance warning. Maybe I’m more sensitive than most, seeing as how I flat out 100% refused to watch either Tom and Jerry OR the Roadrunner cartoons as a kid because I couldn’t stand seeing the violence.
I get that a snake’s gotta eat, but bringing it in for Show and Tell and turning it into a gladiator event for the 5 year old set seems, well, a little unnecessary to me. I can’t figure out if I’m overreacting or not. My daughter took it in stride and seemed much less traumatized by the event than either myself or my mom, so maybe I’m just being the fuddy duddy here.
What do you think? Would you view a live animal sacrifice in the name of edification as a delightful learning opportunity, or would it have bugged you?
I don’t know if I get to weigh in as I’m not a parent, but I wouldn’t have a problem with it. Snakes eat mice, and snakes in the wild eat live mice. I remember watching our class alligator lizards eat live crickets in elementary school, and in junior high I had a science teacher who fed his snake live mice.
I *do* think the teacher showed poor judgment by not warning parents ahead of time, but I don’t think she should be somehow punished for it–I think it was poor judgment only because of the parental wrath I’m sure it’ll bring down on her.
So… meh. That’s just me, though. 🙂
Of course you can weigh in! 🙂
I don’t in any way think the teacher should be punished- like I said I don’t think she did anything wrong. I’m not going to say anything. I’m just trying to gauge whether or not my own internal reaction was overdone.
My kids all have 4 legs, too! But I say yuck — 5 year olds should get the sanitized version not the actual real life, up front and personal, closer than 3D version of the Circle of Life.
i agree that five years old is a bit too young for such an in your face lesson.
you did say that you weren’t sure if the teacher knew in advance that the snake would be enjoying a meal durring show and tell, but i do think she showed poor judgment in not specifiying that while the snake could come to class s/he should not be fed durring the visit. (i’m assuming that the student in question had been granted permission to bring the snake to school.)
Aside from the “is it too graphic for kids” discussion, it’s not a good idea to feed snakes live mice. Snakes frequently get hurt by live rodents (in vet school I saw one with some wicked facial lacerations), not to mention that it’s just plain more humane for the mouse to have a quick death from cervical dislocation than to slowly suffocate to death. Yes, it happens in the wild all the time, but a) predators in the wild are frequently injured, sometimes fatally, by their prey and b) in the wild animals can die slow deaths from starvation or injury… does that mean it’s right to allow them to suffer when we have the capacity to stop that suffering? Most of the people I’ve met who insist on feeding live mice to their snakes don’t do so because it’s better for the snake but because it’s “cool.” They frequently strike me as rather delinquent personalities.
I think it would be good to communicate to the kids in the class that while this is the way it happens in the wild, the best food for a captive snake is dead.
I second everything that wikith has said. Feeding live rodents isn’t actually the best thing to do for reptiles. It drives me crazy sometimes when people try to treat their pets like ‘wild’ animals, and yet when it comes down to it they don’t actually want all the characteristics wild animals commonly have in their pets, i.e. parasites, traumatic injuries, etc.
Aside from that, I think your reaction is perfectly reasonable. If the kids had been older I’d be less bothered by it, but I do not think that is an appropriate demonstration for 5-year-olds.
I agree. Every wildlife and reptile vet in school told us that we never feed live animals. I have rather unhappy memories of sticking a dead rat in a pair of tongs and making it ‘dance’ for an eagle. Which was about the time I decided that I would refer any patient that didn’t have four feet and fur.
Oh, you just brought back memories of my volunteer hours in the raptor center with the owl puppet. That was an odd time.
Well, I think it obviously did no harm if your daughter had that nonchalant reaction. And I’m pretty sure it probably wasn’t what the teacher had in mind. I would have been thoroughly grossed out and I am 57 and have had a son and have watched puppies being born! I really think the problem here is that it was a “warm-fuzzy” baby mouse, not a creepy-crawly cricket that the snake ate.
They should ABSOLUTELY not do such a thing without warning people!
Some people’s kids can’t stand Where The Wild Things Are (nightmares!!!). I believe my kid would have been freaked by this. My stomach is turned by the very idea.
Good grief.
Ok, it’s natural.
SO WHAT????
YUCK.
hm, Personally I do not think that it did your daughter any harm (she seemed to find it interesting, lol). But I also agree with the various people that said that there either should have been warning (so that parents could make a choice) or that this should not have been shown to 5 (!!) year olds…
On another note, what kind of 5 year old has a pet snake that is big enough that it can eat mice, even if they are small ones? I mean, boas and corn snakes can get top be pretty big and in my opinion are not a suitable pet for LITTLE CHILDREN… Reptiles should only be kept by older kids or responsible adults because of the care they need to keep them healthy and prevent spread of bacteria, etc… Sorry to rant…
I think 5 years old is too young to see something like that. I would have a problem with it if I were you. I am really glad your daughter took it in stride and wasn’t traumatized by it. That part is lucky! I wonder if all of the kids had the same reaction?
When I was 5 years old, I wouldn’t even look at the “S” encyclopedia because there were pics of snakes in that one! I was very, very afraid of snakes and would have been traumatized just being in the same room with one. So I do think there should have been advance warning to the parents. I would have wanted to be out of the room while the snake was there. The snake eating the mouse would have just reinforced my fear at that age, I’m sure.
Hmm…an interesting question, I remember we used to go to library programs with live snake exhibits and watch the eat, they have these types of things and zoos and such don’t they? I don’t know personally it doesn’t bother me overly much as I was exposed to these kinds of things at a young age..it was a fact of life, sometimes we saw on video, sometime we saw it live. Heh… i mean my mom was dissecting frogs on a kitchen table when I was 8 or 9.. 🙂
I don’t have kids so I’ll try to think back. We had snakes, mice, rats, gerbils and fish in 2nd grade (so we were 8 years old, a bit older than your daughter). Every week, we had to do a job in the classroom. Yes, one of the jobs was feeding mice to the snakes (it wasn’t treated as a gladiator-type event though as the teacher was very careful to explain that it wasn’t). I never had to do it but my best friend was assigned it and she promptly traded jobs because she was horrified. I don’t think it had a long-term impact on either of us but I do think the way it was presented in your daughter’s class was inappropriate (particularly at age 5). If anything, it kind of teaches kids that small animals are expendable.
I get that it’s natural, but I think if the feeding was to be a live event then the parents should have had an opportunity to choose. I would have chosen no but that is because I know my child and know how it would have affected her. Show and tell is fine, but each family has their own level of comfort when it comes to violence (natural or no) and 5 is still an age where parents should get to decide where and how that is presented. At least with an advance warning you could have prepped your daughter, had some time to explain.
If I had witnessed such an event as a 5-year-old…heck, as a 55-year-old…I would be traumatized for life. But that’s just the way I am.
Me too.
Not a big fan of feeding live food to snakes anyway, frozen is safer and more humane.
I think it just depends on the person. My sister is going into 4th grade now and she is just as sensitive about animals as I am and I know she would be very upset if she saw that.
wow, i would cry if i were her!!! I vote not cool by the teacher, if someone brought in their snake, fine. But the moment she saw they were gonna feed it a mouse as the trick, i’d have to say no go to that!
I don’t think you overreacted. You weren’t exactly expecting to hear that your daughter got to see a snake eat a mouse, but you didn’t lose your cool & freak out in front of her. (Well maybe a little, but your daughter didn’t seem to pick up on it.) She appeared okay with the whole thing, so regardless of what your feelings were, you’re letting it go and not making it a big deal with her. Now if your daughter was really upset by what she’d seen then I am sure you’d be more concerned and handle it accordingly.
As a former 2nd grade teacher, thanks for not condemning the teacher! She may have been frozen in horror herself, and unable to stop it in time! I had a teacher in high school (parochial school) who fed a mouse to a large boa in class to ‘show us the evil in the world’. Ya know, I think I can watch the news on TV to see that!
Oh. My. Goodness.
I would have reacted the same way. I know that as an adult I don’t want to see things like that on TV, let alone in person! It sounds like your daughter is very resilient and is a-ok with it? But it sounds like the teacher was caught off guard (i hope) and I would have been just as shocked. ugh. a baby mouse?!!! ugh.
Personally, I would be fine with something like this, but I think that the teacher is going to be fielding questions from a lot of angry parents.
As several others have stated, it’s not safe to feed live prey to snakes, and most resources on care and handling of snakes states so. Considering that dead prey is easy to come by, there’s really no good reason to do it. And whether snakes eat live prey in nature or not, I think it is of dubious morality to throw a healthy animal into a confined space with no hope of escape.
As an enthusiast and keeper of rodents (I have four beautiful and loving rats) I find the double standard frustrating: feed a mouse to a snake in front of a bunch of five year olds, and it’s just demonstrating what happens in nature, but would everyone be so cool with it if the raptor society brought a bird of prey in and fed it baby animals like rabbits and kittens?
Regardless of how much warning the teacher had, there was surely enough time to notice that the child had a mouse, and to stop him from putting it into the cage in front of the class. This would be a definite no-go for me. I’m not entirely sure a 5 year old has the moral reasoning capacity to understand the difference between the circle of life and a callousness for life.
I’m not normally one to be contrary, but no responsible falconer would feed their raptor a kitten. That’s just grossly inaccurate.
I don’t think she was suggesting that at all… I think she was just saying that’s what happens in nature, yet that’s not a good argument in that instance for doing it as a demo, as was the argument made in this case.
I get that she’s trying to point out the fallacy of the ‘Circle of Life’ arguement, and I agree with that point, however to do so she’s using an unfair and innaccurate comparison which is really the only thing I was protesting. Cats/kittens are seen as family members, not animals so using the kitten was playing into an emotional response. Baby animals illict the same emotional response. That’s what I was protesting.
Except that birds of prey DO carry off kittens in nature. And as for your argument that I was “playing into an emotional response”, just because YOU don’t keep rodents as family members/pets, doesn’t mean others don’t (and I think of them ALL as animals AND family members – why do you somehow get less regard if you’re just an ‘animal’?) My rats are just as precious to me as my cats and dogs. My whole point is that people don’t seem to care about whats not important to THEM specifically. I love rodents: to me it’s as distressing hearing about people feeding them to snakes as it is to hear about raptors carrying off kittens. My impression is that you’re saying it’s an “unfair and inaccurate comparison” because you think of mice as merely “animals” and not family members, therefor it is not accurate to compare their death with the death of an animal YOU perceive as more than an “animal.” I’ve spent over $1500 in mammary tumor surgery in the last year for my ratty girls – do they get to be regarded as family yet? Or just snake food?
And how would you know that I don’t keep rodents as pets? Or spent quite a bit of money at the vet on them? Or cried when a rescue mallocluded and the only merciful thing to do was have him euthunized – and still mist up just because of thought about it? This information however, really has nothing to do with the original protest.
I’m going to reiterate: you compared feeding a mouse to a snake akin to a raptor society feeding their bird a kitten. No responsible falconer would feed a kitten to their bird. Simple as that, and that’s what makes it an inaccurate comparison. Domestic cats are just that – domesticated. Yes, some cats have gone feral so yes, technically raptors would eat them. But most raptors eat rabbits, smaller birds, snakes, small mammals (rodents!) and fish. In fact, most falconers feed their raptors quail, chicken and beef. Not kittens.
Snakes eat rodents. They do. As upsetting as it might be, it’s they’re natural food source. Should the kid of fed the snake in front of the class? Heck no! It was incredibly innappropriate. But does a snake eating a mouse, in general terms, distress me? No. It’s what they eat. Snakes have a right to eat, even if I happen to like what they’re eating.
Please also realize that I could flip your arguement on you – just because you percieve rodents as pets doesn’t mean all people do. Lots of people see them as vermin, plain and simple. It still doesn’t change the comparison – which is the only thing I was protesting.
I don’t really want to continue this conversation because I don’t want it to descend into a flame war (and it sort of already has) on Dr. V’s blog. I like Dr. V. She’s a nice lady. So I’m stopping.
Having both fed live prey to snakes while I was in school, and teaching in an after school program that was nature based, and pretty open about the circle of life. I am surprised the teacher didn’t give parents a heads up, or send a message home after the incident, as well as pretty sure no lasting damage was done to the children.
Child birth is natural too but I wouldn’t want my five year old being treated to a live demonstration in show and tell. I believe it’s a question of age appropriateness- it’s a good discussion point on many issues raised here but for OLDER children and where that line would be, well, that’s the toughie, but IMHO the second the teacher saw the live mouse come out, DONE. This is definitely something that requires parental notice. While I am glad daughter took it so well, I myself was traumatized just reading about the event and the conversation that ensued later. I can see this being EXTREMELY traumatizing to a child who has not yet dealt with death in their lives and had a chance to talk it through with parents… I mean, I had a meltdown when my gold fish died and I was 7 for goodness sakes. There’s my two cents
Good thing we had like 5 deaths for daughter to deal with this last year. :/ As you can probably imagine the most horrified person in this scenario was Mom. 😀
You know, I think it’s okay. Especially since your daughter seems to be dealing with it just fine. I personally think that one of the major problems in our society today is the sanitized, anthropomorphic view we have have animals and nature in general. Many of the behavior problems we see in our pets stem from our handling them with a human value system as little people in fur suits instead of respecting their differences and treating them as dogs or cats. I adore my dogs and they are my “children” in so many ways, but I never forget they are dogs. It’s disrespectful to their “dogginess” to treat them as people. But I digress. I don’t think that 5 is too young to learn that Mother Nature can be cruel and beautiful at the same time. There is beauty in the struggle of life. JMO.
I’m a little surprised that the child’s mom or dad didn’t consider the implications of letting the five-year old share such a graphic show & tell. Maybe less surprised, and more disappointed.
Sounds like that pet ownership and responsibility “lecture” for your daughter’s class is becoming more apropos, Dr. V.
Hmmmm…well, I used to live out in the country. One day, when my daughter was about 6, we heard an ungodly screaching out in the back yard. We went out to see what was up, and found a huge rat snake trying to swallow a baby rabbit, back feet first. I grabbed a hoe, lopped off the snakes head and it then relinquished the hold on the baby bunny. But the damage was already done. The hind legs of the baby bunny were paralized, I assume to some nerve damage . We called the local vet and he came out, but told us there wasn’t anything he could do. He did give it a pain shot of some sort, and we tried careing for the bunny for the night. It died the next day.
We cried.
The next day, it was obviously weighing on my daughters mind. I asked her if she was ok, and she said yeah, but then she said, “Mom, yanno, you killed that snake.” I said, ” Well, yes, but I was trying to save the bunny.” She said, ” I’m sorry the bunny died, but don’t ya think that snake was just hungry and wanted some food?” I just looked at her with a ” …..” and then she said, now mind you she was 6, ” Maybe sometimes it’s hard, and if we hadn’t been here to hear the bunny screaming, the snake would have had a belly full of bunny and you wouldn’t have had to kill that snake.”
My rationilazation has always been, “There is no such thing as a good snake. Kill em all!” But my daughter did remind me, in her little way, of the circle of life.
We may well be at the top of the food chain, but that doesn’t mean we intentionally inflict pain on those that are not.
We raised beef, hog, chickens and goats (num, cabrito), and a huge garden, so she knows where food comes from. But I was really impressed with her way of thinking on this, at least for a six year old. I think young children are more adaptable to the “circle of life” than some of us give them credit for.
Given your daughters matter of fact-nous and her reaction to it, I predict she is just fine.
Much luv,
Your daughter is very wise. I think mine is wiser than me too.
from Megumi:
“I get that it’s natural, but I think if the feeding was to be a live event then the parents should have had an opportunity to choose. I would have chosen no but that is because I know my child and know how it would have affected her. Show and tell is fine, but each family has their own level of comfort when it comes to violence (natural or no) and 5 is still an age where parents should get to decide where and how that is presented. At least with an advance warning you could have prepped your daughter, had some time to explain.”
Having said all that above, she/he , HITS THE NAIL ON THE HEAD!
(sorry, didn’t read all the comments before i inserted my 2 cents worth in there)
much luv
I think she reacted so maturely! Being a vet may run in the family!
I completely agree that at your daughter’s age, the whole life cycle should be Disney-fied. It’s not fair to keep children in the dark about things but I also don’t think it’s fair to show them the icky nitty gritty. Your daughter is a very amazing 5 year old. I don’t think I could have had that much composure after seeing a mouse get eaten at 5 let alone today. I would have been a hysterical mess.
Definately would have bugged me. I used to keep mice as pets at that age and would have found it very distressing. (I actually would have found it very distressing now!). I’m not a mum to a human kid but if I was I would be talking to your daughters school about clearing these things off with parents first – its the kind of thing that mum and dad should have first dibs on explaining to their kid, not some surprise live-demo from a kid in their class. My two cents, anyway.
…..but your daughter sounded very prosaic about the whole thing, i think she’s just fine 🙂
I can’t even watch nature documentaries because inevitably some poor animal is going to be eaten or worse – injured and left for dead while the film makers capture every last agonising moment as the poor animal dies a slow and painful death. So I know for sure that having to watch a baby mouse suffocate inside a snake’s mouth as a 5 y.o would have totally freaked me out.
I totally agree with Hope. I think Randy’s parents should have given more thought to the implications & cleared the whole thing with the teacher beforehand. It was irresponsible to presume every other 5 y.o would be okay witnessing the circle of life up close and personal.
Well done Dr V for handling this with aplomb. It must have taken a far amount of self-control not to run out of the room screaming bloody murder :p
Same here… I can never watch those “lions hunt gazelles on the serengeti” nature shows, much less witness a little mouse get consumed live by a snake.
Five seems too young to see this, but it sounds like the teacher had educated the kids. Maybe the teacher had no idea Randy was bringing the snake and its’ “snack”. I would have been traumatized, but then I cried for two hours when Fala died in the Bambi movie-and I was 25 years old!
Wow, what great insights and views! I don’t have a 2-legged kid but I think it’s okay IF the parents sign off on it first. I think you should’ve been given the chance to decide. That said, permission slips, etc. could turn it into a much bigger deal for the children because the adults made it one?? Just a opposing though in my own head, lol!
Oops, it’s late. “Just an opposing thought in my own head”!